Troy Miller / Liteglow Industries / Lowglow Neon - wants to do his business on others' private property, asking how dare they to forbid him to, and claiming those who don't allow him to enter their private property to be "anti-commerce". Here is my responce: "You DON'T have the permission to do your business on my private property, so FOAD!" lowglow.com, liteglow.com, [66.21.7.193 - 66.21.7.223]: Access denied! === Evidence === Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: troy@liteglow.com (Troy Miller) Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: spews.org - Good Guys or Black Ops? Date: 3 Jun 2003 09:35:12 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 52 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.21.7.210 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1054658112 19382 127.0.0.1 (3 Jun 2003 16:35:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jun 2003 16:35:12 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:2000259 I agree with the theory behind spews, obviously people have taken advantage of the Internet and email. This has lead to a great deal of abuse by unscrupulous individuals. However, when a service such as spews starts to interfere with our business I must protest the broad strokes taken by spews in blocking IP address's by the millions. This system needs to be revised. You cannot go on hurting legitimate business because a few delinquents are abusing the system. I also have concerns about your business practice. Here is just a limited selection from Whois: Registrant ID:25-C Registrant Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR Registrant Street1:Whois Server:whois.joker.com Registrant Street2:Referral URL:www.joker.com Registrant City:N/A Registrant Postal Code:N/A Registrant Country:CA Registrant Email:not@available.org I am not laughing. This is not a joke when it hurts legitimate business. Example: IMG Direct has been spamming from within the same parent IP Block that we are a part of. Are you that lazy, or is your system that juvenile that you cannot block just IMG Direct's IP's? It just makes simple sense that you would code your program to allow known LEGITIMATE IP's to pass thru, but from my experience and from what I have read about your program that is not the case. There comes a point in time when hiding behind a Constitutional Amendment violates that Amendment. Your program may be opinion, but when you or your users take advantage of it or abuse it, you become what you are trying to prevent. Regardless of what you want to believe, making this program available without the flexibility to exclude legitimate IP address's is anti-commerce. Hiding behind a news group, having no contact information available on your website and faking the Registrant information for the Whois database is something that a coward would do. You claim to be a group of professionals, your program is not. Just a curiosity question: do any of you work for Microsoft? Your program seems to be along the lines of what they would put out. Black Ops or Good guy? Right now it looks like Black Ops.. Legitimate IP's that are being blocked: 66.21.7.193 66.21.7.223 You need to make serious adjustments to your programming once that is done, I might consider using it on my mail servers. As long as you take it upon yourselves to be the Internet Police, you endanger commerce, and the Constitution. When your opinion becomes the unwritten law on the Internet then Dictatorship is only one step away. === More data === $ whois lowglow.com <...> Registrant: Lowglow Neon (LOWGLOW-DOM) 2649 Mercy Dr Orlando, FL 32808 US Domain Name: LOWGLOW.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact: Miller, Troy (TMQ369) troy@LITEGLOW.COM Liteglow Industries, Inc. 2301 NW 33rd Ct Pompano Beach, FL 33069 US 954-971-4569 fax: 954-971-4043 Record expires on 26-Feb-2006. Record created on 10-May-2002. Database last updated on 3-Jun-2003 13:38:27 EDT. Domain servers in listed order: NS1.CL.BELLSOUTH.NET 205.152.0.8 NS2.CL.BELLSOUTH.NET 205.152.16.8 NS3.CL.BELLSOUTH.NET 205.152.32.8 $ whois LITEGLOW.COM <...> Registrant: Liteglow Industries Inc (LITEGLOW-DOM) 2301 NW 33rd Ct Suite 112 Pompano Beach, FL 33069 US Domain Name: LITEGLOW.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact: Miller, Troy (TMQ369) troy@LITEGLOW.COM Liteglow Industries, Inc. 2301 NW 33rd Ct Pompano Beach, FL 33069 US 954-971-4569 fax: 954-971-4043 Record expires on 11-Apr-2008. Record created on 10-May-2002. Database last updated on 3-Jun-2003 13:42:16 EDT. Domain servers in listed order: NS1.CL.BELLSOUTH.NET 205.152.0.8 NS2.CL.BELLSOUTH.NET 205.152.16.8 NS3.CL.BELLSOUTH.NET 205.152.32.8 $ host 66.21.7.200 200.7.21.66.in-addr.arpa is an alias for 200.192.7.21.66.in-addr.arpa. 200.192.7.21.66.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer mail.lowglow.com. $ host 66.21.7.201 201.7.21.66.in-addr.arpa is an alias for 201.192.7.21.66.in-addr.arpa. 201.192.7.21.66.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer www.liteglow.com. $ host 66.21.7.202 202.7.21.66.in-addr.arpa is an alias for 202.192.7.21.66.in-addr.arpa. 202.192.7.21.66.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer www.lowglow.com. === My reply === Path: uni-berlin.de!217.22.112.167!not-for-mail From: Dolphin Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: spews.org - Good Guys or Black Ops? Date: 3 Jun 2003 18:28:12 GMT Organization: Private person Lines: 180 Sender: Alexander Sheremet Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.22.112.167 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1054664892 10099667 217.22.112.167 (16 [104765]) X-SPEWS: I am not X-newsgroup: news.admin.net-abuse.email X-PGP-key: 0xAAE2A579 X-PGP-key-fingerprint: 5B8E 3B28 7199 8CD3 4133 FA87 000B 0FB6 AAE2 A579 User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:2000343 On 3 Jun 2003 09:35:12 -0700 Troy Miller wrote in message : > However, when a service such as > spews starts to interfere with our business I must protest the broad > strokes taken by spews in blocking IP address's by the millions. It probably will be an eye-opener for you, but you DON'T do your own business on OTHERS' private property, namely mailservers, unless they allow you to. SPEWS is on of the ways for those mailservers' owners to tell you that as long as you are listed in there, you DON'T have the permission to enter with your e-mails on their mailservers. Keep in mind, that SPEWS doesn't magically appears to be installed on those networks. SPEWS does not come pre-installed. The network owners should choose and manually install it on their own systems. And it's not for you to tell them if they can do that to their private property, or not. > This system needs to be revised. You cannot go on hurting legitimate > business because a few delinquents are abusing the system. Wanna bet? > I also have concerns about your business practice. Their business practice is none of your business. You don't do business with SPEWS, and SPEWS owes you nothing. > Here is just a limited selection from Whois: > > Registrant ID:25-C > Registrant Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR > Registrant Street1:Whois Server:whois.joker.com ===================--^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Read this carefully > Registrant Street2:Referral URL:www.joker.com > Registrant City:N/A > Registrant Postal Code:N/A > Registrant Country:CA > Registrant Email:not@available.org $ whois spews.org @whois.joker.com [Querying whois.joker.com] [whois.joker.com] domain: spews.org status: production origin-c: chip@sendmail.ru#3 organization: Visit Lake Biakal! owner: chip level domains email: chip@sendmail.ru#3 address: po box 61, Baikalsk-2 city: Irkutsk region, -- 665914 postal-code: 665914 country: RU admin-c: chip@sendmail.ru#3 tech-c: chip@sendmail.ru#3 billing-c: chip@sendmail.ru#3 registrar: JORE-1 created: 2001-07-07 15:50:12 UTC caserv expires: 2003-07-07 15:50:12 UTC source: joker.com You were saying...? > I am not laughing. This is not a joke when it hurts legitimate > business. Nobody cares if your business is being hurt. It's YOUR business, and YOUR business decision to rent the Internet space from the irresponsible provider, who refuses to shutdown their spammers. > Example: IMG Direct has been spamming from within the same parent IP > Block that we are a part of. Are you that lazy, or is your system > that juvenile that you cannot block just IMG Direct's IP's? And leaving the irresponsible provider, BellSouth, who are that lazy, or their system is that juvenile, that they cannot shutdown their spammers who abuse our (TINO) networks, without the punishment? Why should we (TINW)? > It just > makes simple sense that you would code your program to allow known > LEGITIMATE IP's to pass thru, but from my experience and from what I > have read about your program that is not the case. Your provider refuses to kick the abusers that abuse my and others' networks. Hence your provider's IPs are NOT legitimate to allow them to pass through. > There comes a point in time when hiding behind a Constitutional > Amendment violates that Amendment. Your program may be opinion, but > when you or your users take advantage of it or abuse it, you become > what you are trying to prevent. Please, refresh your memory on what the First Amedment (which by the way has no powers outside of the USA, and SPEWS is outside of the USA) says. It says that about the GOVERNMENT of the USA, and SPEWS wasn't the govt of the USA the last time I was checking. So even if SPEWS was in the USA, the First Amedment has nothing to do with them. > Regardless of what you want to believe, making this program available > without the flexibility to exclude legitimate IP address's is > anti-commerce. It is no more anti-commerce than helping your provider to steal from other commercial networks. Besides, SPEWS wasn't the commercial entity, they shouldn't really care how commerce or anti-commerce they are. > Hiding behind a news group, having no contact > information available on your website and faking the Registrant > information for the Whois database is something that a coward would > do. Or those who don't want every coward with money to sue them with and without a reason. Or those who don't want to talk to anybody about their work. Or those who don't want others to disturb them. It's the same reason why some people don't want their address to be published in the phone book, or ones that have their phone numbers unlisted. > You claim to be a group of professionals, your program is not. And you of course have a better program to offer, right? So far, I personally find the SPEWS' "program" quite professional, one that fits the current times of the spam elimination and prevention. > Just a curiosity question: do any of you work for Microsoft? Your > program seems to be along the lines of what they would put out. I highly doubt that. Microsoft wants to pass the opt-out law, that will legitimize spam. SPEWS is highly against spam, so do your own judge. > Black Ops or Good guy? Right now it looks like Black Ops.. > Legitimate IP's that are being blocked: 66.21.7.193 66.21.7.223 These are not legitimate IPs. They are owned by BellSouth, who refuses to terminate their abusers' accounts, helping them to abuse our (TINO) networks. > You need to make serious adjustments to your programming once that is > done, I might consider using it on my mail servers. Yeah, SPEWS can't sleep at nights cause your Highness (or should I say "Lowness") doesn't use SPEWS on your servers. This is exactly the point why SPEWS doesn't interfere with the business. If you don't like how SPEWS works - you don't use it. Ones who like the way SPEWS work - they knowingly use it, and agree with the SPEWS' advices whom to block and whom not to. And it's not for anybody else to tell those admins if they can or they can't use SPEWS on their own mailservers. > As long as you > take it upon yourselves to be the Internet Police, you endanger > commerce, And SPEWS would care about commerce why? SPEWS is *Spam* Prevention Early Warning System, and it's only *spam* that SPEWS cares about. > and the Constitution. Whose Constitution are you talking about? And why you think that your Constitution has any influence on SPEWS, who isn't even in USA? > When your opinion becomes the > unwritten law on the Internet then Dictatorship is only one step away. The Dictatorship IS here, and was long time before SPEWS has appeared. The dictatorship is "my servers - I dictate whatever I will do with them". I am the ultimate dictator of my private property. And so is every other owner of their own part of the Internet. There is no democraty on taking the decisions about the private property. Dolphin. -- URL: http://www.DolphinWave.org Mail: on the web page (no spam) ICQ: 6615461